tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post5382815201108982789..comments2024-03-28T04:29:22.717+00:00Comments on mainly macro: Ian Dunt vs Owen Jones: a comment on a brief debateMainly Macrohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09984575852247982901noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-24049842142049407122018-07-01T08:36:51.383+00:002018-07-01T08:36:51.383+00:00Fascinating stuff.Fascinating stuff.Keith Nielsenhttp://keithiest.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-16513198255168762472018-04-29T11:07:05.058+00:002018-04-29T11:07:05.058+00:00Well, Dear Leader Corbyn has consistently attacked...Well, Dear Leader Corbyn has consistently attacked Saudi Arabia, whose leaders are hand in glove both with May conservatives and Blairites. And Saudi Arabia doesn't just sponsor murals, it has sponsored, since the 1970s, the worldwide building of mosques and the supplying of leaders who advocate a form of Islam that is overtly and proudly anti-semitic. I wonder if May asked her friend, the new practical king of SA (and starver of Yemen) if he, too, had been taught the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in school? Which of course is standard stuff in S.A. Although ocassionally the kingdom makes a deal of suppressing it, for Western media, after which it is quietly inserted again. Roger Gathmannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11257400843748041639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-51303086974283540202018-04-23T14:36:29.184+00:002018-04-23T14:36:29.184+00:00Yes, delegitimising opposition is a problem. Of co...Yes, delegitimising opposition is a problem. Of course the Mail shouldn't be sore losers and call the Miller judges "enemies of the people", although they're allowed express that opinion whatever Simon thinks of the paper.<br /><br />Similarly Simon shouldn't be a sore loser and try and delegitimise Brexiters by comparing them to Russian revolutionaries, which he did in a recent post. Of course, he has the right to express that opinion too. <br /><br />I doubt it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy, did anyone become a Marxist after the Daily Mail editorial smeared Miliband using his dad?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-27492378262058912012018-04-23T14:27:12.385+00:002018-04-23T14:27:12.385+00:00Perhaps the artist really is an anti-Semite (evide...Perhaps the artist really is an anti-Semite (evidence please), but the mural in question was stated to depict 4 historical bankers and businessmen, two of which were indeed Jewish and two Gentiles. That's not anti-Semitic, just like if I said I hate Larry Summers I would be an anti-Semite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-48603651190472516082018-04-23T14:25:26.036+00:002018-04-23T14:25:26.036+00:00There is a further difference. No one has a way of...There is a further difference. No one has a way of defeating Assad, especially since he is the internationally recognised president of Syria and even given the US's willingness to intervene without a legal mandate. If Russia supports him then it means we have a difficult proxy war with Russia. Are we going to win and then replace him? We don't have the ability, look at Iraq and Afghanistan. And the government is not sincere, otherwise it wouldn't be letting all those people starve to death in Yemen at the same time.<br /><br />Whereas in Israel-Palestine, the US, UK (aid, arms sales) and EU (free trade agreement) are helping the Israeli side. The left wants us to desist and push the Israelis to give Palestinians their independence because they are entitled to the same self-determination as the Israelis, which has nothing to do with capitalism.<br /><br />If the Palestinians already had a fully fledged and powerful state, but were occupying the Israeli lands after a war that ended fifty years ago, and we were helping them, I think you'd understandAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-50554602040976480142018-04-23T14:18:34.399+00:002018-04-23T14:18:34.399+00:00They may think so, especially the rank and file (p...They may think so, especially the rank and file (polling shows Scot Lab and SNP members see themselves as each to the left of each other), but it would not lead to a left wing result.<br /><br />Losing the ~8% of Scottish GDP which is the net fiscal transfer from the UK overnight means giant spending cuts, tax rises or both. And Scottish exports to England are worth several times more than exports to rEU.<br /><br />In the independence white paper they suggested that if Scotland was like the "arc of prosperity" small European economies in terms of growth, it'd only be a puny amount (2%?) larger after decades of very slightly increased growth.<br /><br />So what was the plan? To become "the Frankfurt of the North"? (Well I can see why they couldn't use the phrase "City of London of the North")Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-64422551809455405182018-04-17T14:59:36.005+00:002018-04-17T14:59:36.005+00:00Here we go again: "could persuade socially co...Here we go again: "could persuade socially conservative left wing voters not to vote Labour".<br /><br />Unfortunately, if someone wants lower immigration for purely economic reasons e.g. they think immigration means lower wages, they are not being socially conservative. You keep ignoring this, presumably preferring to think of the opposition in terms of the immigrants being foreigners. it is of course true that austerity has far bigger effects on living standards than the mass immigration has, if it has even harmed them at all.<br /><br />I voted Remain but what you're doing here with "will of the people" is your own word game. You know that one side loses a referendum just as opposition parties lose general elections. Referring to the result as legit (will of the people) doesn't mean you think other voters don't count, but that they lost. Of course if we get a second referendum you will want the result to be respected especially if you like it.<br /><br />I'm on the Labour left and voted Corbyn twice but even I can see that the anti-Semitism isn't purely from the Israel-Palestine conflict. Antisemitism predates the state of Israel and predates Zionism and anti-Semites would exist in some form on the left without those issues. The real story is that anti-Semitism exists in all parties, there is no reason to think it's bigger in Labour or that it dates from Corbyn taking over.<br /><br />"attacks on the judiciary, on the civil service, on parliament and on universities" is slippery language and you should be avoiding that since you're complaining about what others say. In a pluralist democracy anybody can criticise actions of those institutions, including politicians. I can imagine if the Miller case had gone the other way that you might have blogged that you thought it was wrongly decided. You might have used intemperate language. That's OK, it's pluralist.<br /><br />If the government actually changed the powers of the judiciary or gagged universities it would be different. And since you want some kind of media ownership control and regulation, are we allowed to accuse you of wanting to "attack" the media, let aslone make the UK less pluralist? I'd be careful.<br /><br />As for civil servants, and pluralism generally, the Treasury forecast about Brexit turned out to be bad, Mark Carney weighed in, many other institutions did. When these groups take the Remain side, are they crushing dissent?<br /><br />When the UK govt pays for a Remain supporting ad to every home using taxpayers' money and the Treasury is used to make a doomsday forecast, the Leavers do have a case that they are being unfairly treated, and I am not even a Leaver. In your terms "democracy" is at stake because you are exaggerating, which is the thing you can't stand from the Leave side.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-84493339013358264312018-04-13T01:36:15.555+00:002018-04-13T01:36:15.555+00:00"It will not be a Labour government that tell..."It will not be a Labour government that tells people that have lived here for scores of years that they now have to leave the UK and say goodbye to their friends and family."<br /><br />They have. I worked in a legal office during New Labour's rule and there were a few cases where people who had made good lives here (one I always remember was a doctor whose NHS bosses wrote asking to keep him, his family had opened a laundromat and they had all integrated) and they still tried to ship him out a bunch of times. <br /><br />I can't remember why, it may have been something serious but technical (I am not an immigration lawyer), but it just seemed so dumb when even the NHS wanted to keep him and they kept managing a reprieve so it can't have been a fatal problem.<br /><br />But New Labour was far too willing to pander to the Mail and others when it came to immigration. And other things.<br /><br />Otherwise I love the blog, good points that I may have to steal for arguments elsewhere. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-38887544727700647452018-04-12T14:51:51.156+00:002018-04-12T14:51:51.156+00:00Although the leaders of the Brexit campaigns came ...Although the leaders of the Brexit campaigns came from the right, the motive force for Brexit came from the left. That bloody bus did not say 'we send the EU £350m a week; let's cut corporation tax instead', it said'... let's fund our sacred totem of social democracy instead'. The Tories are being forced in ever-more state interventionist directions, embracing industrial strategies and under great pressure to act over GKN and passports. The tiger is leading the riders in directions that surprise them.<br /><br />The only reason Brexit is seen as a right-wing phenomenon is the supine cowardice of the left elite. We had *trade unions* screaming that the only way to defend workers' rights was to stay in a neoliberal Single Market that consistently erodes them; and *Labour MPs* screaming that the only way to prevent another Thatcher coming to power was to cling to the Single Market that was literally Thatcher's brainchild. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-39227570674594159552018-04-12T12:56:19.090+00:002018-04-12T12:56:19.090+00:00That seems like quite a tight definition of populi...That seems like quite a tight definition of populism, but even so I would argue that the SNP government in general and the campaign for Scottish independence in 2014 in particular might well qualify as left-wing populism coming to the UK.Big Fezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01098948012233182817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-40478113263053033102018-04-12T10:10:36.267+00:002018-04-12T10:10:36.267+00:00Even if one accepts your contention that the threa...Even if one accepts your contention that the threat today of an authoritarian, anti-pluralist government comes elusively from the right, which is highly questionable if you read left wing blogs, then Labour's response under Corbyn has provided the Right with plenty of open goals.Grahamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06009542948966411498noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-65323199138254173382018-04-12T07:51:31.729+00:002018-04-12T07:51:31.729+00:00Well put but likely to be ignored. To centrists, p...Well put but likely to be ignored. To centrists, populism is a way of denigrating popular policies they don't like. Given the marginalisation of the left from the 80s on, they've never had to listen to those people before, and now they do, it makes them extremely cross.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-76649776902900346062018-04-11T22:13:53.806+00:002018-04-11T22:13:53.806+00:00Your funny.Your funny.StuartPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13748038209546648459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-50744601165791951832018-04-11T15:51:08.330+00:002018-04-11T15:51:08.330+00:00You’re quite right about origin and cause - it’s r...You’re quite right about origin and cause - it’s ridiculous to point equally at Left and Right. <br />The origin and cause is from the Right, but the question of responsibility is more complicated. <br />Populism is a problem because it can include something that is actually popular. Rather like Boris Johnson’s articles about the EU, it pushes a big lie, but one which contains a grain of truth. The headline is not the article. <br />Fear of foreigners is to some extent natural - just look at us as parents warning our children about strangers. So it’s a good topic for a populist politician to push an agenda by linking it to bad things that supposedly come from foreigners - whether immigrants or politicians in ‘Brussels’. Even academics can fall into this trap by instinctively feeling that ideas and methods from outside their own culture are somehow strange - look at how few from the Anglo-Saxon world seem to understand ideas from France, Germany, Japan, China…<br />Populism wins by spreading poison. People are scared to fight it because of the grain of popular support that lies at its heart. So it works by snuffing out other voices - one reason why your emphasis on the role of the media is so apt. <br />It needs politicians with good leadership skills to voice the alternative view. Sadly, many on the Left are coopted into the populist drive. They may not have been the cause, but they must bear a heavy responsibility. <br />So we had Gordon Brown telling us that we need British jobs for British workers, in between lecturing EU leaders on the virtues of deregulation just before the financial crash. And we have union leaders and the Labour leadership talking about the need to end free movement of people. With friends like that...Alannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-10439059911289353542018-04-11T14:38:50.562+00:002018-04-11T14:38:50.562+00:00As I see it the only problem you have in the UK in...As I see it the only problem you have in the UK in seeing populism as a right wing thing is the facts.<br /><br />Issues such as Brexit and immigration are certainly touch stone issues in a populist world. But you would think that right wing implies pro business but how is Brexit pro business and surely most businesses would want greater immigration in order to keep wages under control and to provide a market because Economics 101 sees population growth a one of the main drivers of GDP? It doesn't stack up.<br /><br />As regards anti semitism I think in the political world there is a conflation of anti semitism with Zionism and the actions of the Israeli government. I'm inclined to agree with the view that "true" anti semitism is more of a right wing thing.<br /><br />Such issues as immigration and Islamophobia may be poisonous to you but they do have salience for many people and these are not just avid readers of the DM. The fatal mistake may be to view these issues as you view them: having their origin in the right wing press but having no validity in the real world; that is a rather complacent view. Robert Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03593742130088640939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-25888963754135751572018-04-11T13:39:17.993+00:002018-04-11T13:39:17.993+00:00'The source of that problem is the Israel Pale...'The source of that problem is the Israel Palestine situation'<br /><br />The left's attitude to Israel-Palestine is a symptom of its casting of capitalism, the West in general, and the US in particular as the sources of all evil in the world. Israel (and by association Jews) are just on the wrong side.<br /><br />You can tell that the root cause is not the 'situation' by comparing to Syria. Here the 'situation' is equally appalling, but the left is silent, or at best mealy-mouthed, because the offenders (Russia, Assad) are deemed to be the goodies.<br /><br />This anti-capitalist, 'anti-imperialist' framing is every bit as populist, and every bit as potentially dangerous, as the rhetoric of the right. In particular it combines naturally and seamlessly with the scapegoating of jews, as we are seeing. I grant you that it's probably less of a threat in the UK today than the populism of the right, but that's just a reflection of who's in power. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-16779889718541539872018-04-11T12:46:02.889+00:002018-04-11T12:46:02.889+00:00"Antisemitism is a problem within Labour, but..."Antisemitism is a problem within Labour, but the source of that problem is the Israel Palestine situation"<br /><br />Exactly what does Israel/Palestine have to do with, for example, Jackie Walker claiming that Jews are responsible for the slave trade, or Dear Leader Corbyn defending the creator of a blatantly antisemitic (not anti-Zionist, antisemitic) mural? Or plenty of other similar examples...?Jon Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312906488842328889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2546602206734889307.post-82233459762544770242018-04-11T10:44:17.031+00:002018-04-11T10:44:17.031+00:00The real problem with Dunt style centrism, which i...The real problem with Dunt style centrism, which is so prominent in the British media although seemingly without a great deal of support in the country (see the Lib Dems in 2015 and 2017; or the number of registered supporters for Liz Kendall in 2015), is the way it tries to delegitimize opposition - this is a real threat to democracy.<br /><br />People who want to leave the EU or live in a country with low levels of immigration are racists. People who support Corbyn are anti-Semites, Stalinists etc. Sociology suggests that when people are constantly labelled in such ways - especially, by the media elite - then it can have dangerous consequences - self-fulfilling prophecies etc craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01519267295102106588noreply@blogger.com